Is Teaching Hate Free Speech?
While the America’s most influential political group, extreme right-wing Christians, does whatever it can to prevent harsher legislation against bullying in schools (because it’s a part of growing up and preventing it would be pushing the gay agenda) they seem to have a problem with bullying all of sudden when one of their own is the “victim”. Just that “bullying” isn’t quite the right term here.
Viki Knox is a high school teacher who said both on Facebook and in class that homosexuality is perversion and sin that spreads like cancer. Way to make kids feel all right in their own skin! Understandably some people believe that someone who is obviously trying not only to take her religious beliefs into the classroom (something that is all to common in the Unites States) but also is spreading that kind of hate that already led to an uncounted number of suicides of queer kids should not be allowed to teach kids.
She is not only backing and encouraging anti-gay bullies with her hateful comments she is making as a teacher, someone who is supposed to be a role model; she also gives the kids she is teaching the impression that maybe it doesn’t get better. Because what is it worth to tell bullied teens that they will be fine once they escape their narrow-minded contemporaries if they can see in their own classrooms that adults are just as cruel and vicious?
The sad irony is that the very Christians we were talking about above now come out and have the nerve to hold up signs saying “Don’t bully Viki”. Because, clearly, it’s only bullying if someone is telling you that driving kids into depressions and suicide is not OK.
NJ.com has more on the issue and a poll asking if you think Viki Knox should be fired.
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about 1 year ago
I just went to that poll site and voted to have her fired. Here is the tally at the time of my voting:
Yes ….. 32.52% (373 votes)
No ….. 67.48% (774 votes)
Total Votes: ….. 1,147
As you can see, the religious nut-cases are now leading by a pretty wide margin so she might not get fired.
about 1 year ago
Fortunately, polls have little effect on board decisions, and unless they commissioned this one they might not even see it. They are more likely to be guided by personal opinions, which group supports them politically, and case law. No board of education wants to be sued, so you can bet they’ll be listening to their lawyer.
about 1 year ago
“Polls” like this are essentially rigged. All the nut cases tell their friends to stuff the ballot box so to speak. So keep in mind they’re aren’t representative of actual public opinion. Though no doubt the actual public opinion wouldn’t be all that happy to see in any case.
As for the substance of the matter, being hypocrites and two-faced is standard procedure for these types. Though I’ve never quite understood how they manage to look in the mirror each morning without puking.
about 1 year ago
I have a very simple solution to the problem of free speech. If someone dies because of hate speech charge them with murder. If it ever turns out it’s one of their own kids that dies because of it rub their nose it it and then charge them with murder.
about 1 year ago
i completely agree – teaching hate, ofc outside of the classroom, is allowed, the same as thinking to kill someone is. So in the end the fault lies with the person that did what the person teached, and the teacher itself – in what proportion….depends on what happened.
about 1 year ago
Just replace “gays” with “Jews” or “blacks”. I don’t think that many people would support her “freedom of speech” there.
about 1 year ago
That’s so true.
Unfortunately many Christians think that homosexuality is something a person chooses, unlike race.
about 1 year ago
The key legal issue here isn’t that she’s teaching hate. She’s publicly expressed a religious opinion and connected it to her position as a public school teacher – and that’s probably not legal. If she said anything like what she said on Facebook while in the classroom, it would be a clear violation.
The US has been trying to get religion out of the classrooms for decades. When I was a kid, we said the Lord’s Prayer every morning. That ended while I was in middle school. The religious extremists have been trying to get prayer back in ever since.
The school board could also decide that her actions have undermined her ability to be an effective teacher and use that as a reason to fire her, but since that’s a “subjective” decision, she’d almost certainly sue.
about 1 year ago
*sigh* i had a similar experience, no where near as bad, but my teacher did tell me to brake up with my bf for no reason and told me not to get another one. she was christian, but i thought she was sane before that day lol.
that along with with general bullying and i didnt say anything to anyone, i wish i was braver back then.
about 1 year ago
Firing this teacher will make her a martyr, which will do little to further “our” cause. Nothing makes hate and fear flourish better than driving it underground. The premise behind “free speech” is that not only are people allowed to freely express their beliefs, they expose those beliefs for all to see, and they can be judged on their own merit. Hate cannot survive in the open, let it have it’s day in the sun so we can point it out for all to see.
Would it not be better to watch her high-minded, self-righteousness wither in the face of truth?
about 1 year ago
If there is one that is for free speech it’s me. Still, when is too much too much? Kids are dropping like flies because of teachers, preachers, politicians and on and on that voice their absolute hatred of gays. In the U.S., there is one running for the presidency. He says that homosexuality is a choice and a sin. When that kind of bigotry can be found at such a high level of power you absolutely need to answer the question of when too much is too much. Not firing that teacher because you fear it would drive her hatred and bigotry underground is exactly what she’s hoping for. If you let her off she has won. She will have proven we fear her more than we should. Let’s be totally honest here. Fired or not she will not change, so fire her ass away from kids. Call her bluff, once and for all.
about 1 year ago
I agree this woman is poison, and I’m not advocating inaction, I just wonder if firing her would make any difference. As you pointed out, it will do nothing to change her views; firing her may well reinforce those ideas in her and her peers. Would it be better to administer a public censure or rebuke requiring an equally public apology for bringing her religion into the classroom? Maybe that might be a better way to focus shame on her rather than give fuel to her fire.
The other side of this arguement is that if she made her remarks on Facebook, not in the capacity of teacher, any attempt to silence her there may land on shaky legal ground.
about 1 year ago
I clicked the link to the poll intending to vote for her to be fired, but I read the article first. There’s not enough info to make a decision.
Josh’ post is the only place where I read that she made anti-gay remarks in the classroom. As a teacher, she needs to be neutral on the “issue”. As a citizen, she has as much a right to be against homosexuality as I have a right to embrace it. The article makes no comment as to her keeping her personal Facebook page separate from her professional life. Does she advertise her Facebook to her students ? The article does state: “Knox asked students in her Seekers Fellowship Bible group to pray” but I don’t know if this Bible group is a school function or a separate function in her personal life (IE: a church sponsored class).
As for the comments she made (and again, from the article I really don’t have the full story) I am dismayed to hear such things. But put things into perspective and reread this entire post and comments. She made comments against something we believe in .. a difference in opinions. While such comments do lead to hate, she herself didn’t direct those comments towards any specific person no did she mention any actions to take towards those who disagree.
On the other hand, we have the gay community who seems to have a lot of members that are directing statements specifically for her, that an action should be taken to fire her. Why do we wish this ? Because her opinion is different than ours.
Be honest with yourself … which side is spreading hate the most.
Not that I’m supporting her. I simply do not have enough information to make the correct decision, therefore I didn’t answer the poll. If I were to vote “yes/fire her” based on my limited knowledge of the situation, then I’m guilty of the very thing I’m accusing her of doing.
As a community, gays can’t ask for acceptance as long as we’re never willing to accept the fact that some people will never like us. Ironic as it is, for true acceptance, everyone must agree to disagree on anything.
about 1 year ago
Josh likely got his information about the teacher’s classroom comments from the video, where a student says she heard from another student about some classroom comments, Hearsay is pretty weak as evidence goes, and even the student speaking didn’t sound entirely convinced of its accuracy.
about 1 year ago
Succinctly put.
about 1 year ago
Well one wouldn’t say Martin Luther King or Malcolm X were spreading hate equally against their oppressors.
There’s hatred and intolerance against a group of people (gays, blacks) and then there’s legitimate criticism of ignorance and we should never conflate the two.
She can say what she wants, but that doesn’t negate the possibility of criticism nor consequences.
In a liberal democracy where the marketplace of ideas dictate that good ideas are refined and bad ideas are tossed out. This happens through open dialogue and communication.
She’s a teacher, a professional given the responsibility of teaching kids and developing young minds.
Try saying negative things about the company you work for and its employees and see where that gets you. This is not protected speech and we only demean the idea of free speech when we pretend that it is.
about 1 year ago
I don’t know whether not she should be fired, but I do think that teachers like her should come out say that their going to use their beleaves in school. So the kids know that, and can make the decision to leave or ignore them. Kid are not dumb, and can make choices for them selfs!
about 1 year ago
I think firing her would just make her a martyr for the pro-hate Christians.
Why not just discipline her and let her keep her job?
Tell her not to speak about her political/religious/social views in the classroom. Honestly, I would be pretty upset (not equally upset because I’m biased obviously) if a gay teacher sat in front of students and preached about their social life. Its not the time of place for it. That’s the main problem here….not that she has hateful opinions, but that she brings them to a classroom.
Besides, with all the teachers unions out there, I don’t even think the school board is capable of firing her.
about 1 year ago
I’m for free speech for everyone. But there are very important considerations to be evaluated here:
1. Did she offer hate/anti-gay speech (in any form) within the confines of a public school (anywhere on the campus including using a public school’s computers).
2. Did she attempt to offer her own opinions/promotion of anything religious within the confines of a public school (anywhere on the campus).
3. Does her hate/anti-gay/religious speech in any way interfere with the students ability to educate themselves in an objective way? And, is said speech detrimental to any of the students (physical or psychological) in any way because of it/her?
These are the 3 important questions that need to be asked and answered. The “grayest area” of concern is #3.
To wit: Male students who happens to be “outwardly” effiminate (even slightly) in her class may feel ostricized becuase of her religious and anti-gay background and she may react as well by giving said students lower markings on their speaking or written assignments if she even thinks someone “may be gay.”
And since it is illegal (in our U.S. Constitution) to bring religion into any public classroom in any form, we need to enforce that with an “iron hand,” period. The fundamentalist “christians” and any other religious movement is actively attempting to make the USA into a (their own) theocratic state.
about 1 year ago
This is a sad state of affairs, and so I think students who are likely to face some kind of discrimination need to know their rights inside out, and as soon as a teacher unreasonable steps out of line, the student should make the teacher aware of their poor actions and the consequences if continued. It seems common for people to leave school (myself included) and say “I wish I was braver at school to confront people”
about 1 year ago
Jesus Christ on a bike
I just went on that web page and seen how the majority were saying don’t fire her.
….but then i read the comments and seen how the religious right were spamming it with bible passages and incorrect “facts” from history.
So really that web page and its poll don’t bother me too much, clearly its NOT what the majority think but rather the views of those right wing freaks.
But you have to wonder; whats it like in their head.
I mean they have MAJOR hypocritical views yet they don’t see this, I’m fascinated by their thought process.
I mean is it really possible to be that messed up but still manage to function in every day life.
its remarkable
about 1 year ago
“….but then i read the comments and seen how the religious right were spamming it with bible passages and incorrect “facts” from history.”
That’s exactly what they always do ….. ALL of them possess this incredibly ignorant assumption that their “bible” (no matter what fucked-up version they’re reading from) has all the answers to everything of life and they will believe this until the day they die.
“But you have to wonder; whats it like in their head. I mean they have MAJOR hypocritical views yet they don’t see this, I’m fascinated by their thought process. I mean is it really possible to be that messed up but still manage to function in every day life. its remarkable”
If their “bible” [/koran/etc] says it’s possible/probable, then that’s what they will believe and act on — no matter how brainwashed they are and will never understand that simple FACT.
about 1 year ago
Absolutely not. It’s about standards in education.
This is not protected speech. Children should be taught how to think and question and be given the facts.
There is not excuse to be taught ignorance.
about 1 year ago
“…America’s most influential political group, extreme right-wing Christians…”
Says who?
about 1 year ago
History itself. Look at how anyone that is not percieved as a “true christian” is treated in your country. Don’t believe me? When’s the last time you saw an agnostic or atheist president? How about women’s rights? The repression they were under was faith based. How about slavery? Again faith based. After all the bible did say that you could own a slave and that women were to be kept under men’s rule.
Look at your laws. So many are based on religious beliefs it’s mind bogling that you would even feel the need to ask your question. Final point. How many more kids do you need to see dead before you get the point? Anti homosexuality is 99% faith based. Hell you even have a sin tax!
about 1 year ago
“When’s the last time you saw an agnostic or atheist president?”
NEVER, at least never “declared.”
“Anti homosexuality is 99% faith based.”
Sorry,wrong by a slight margin — Anti-homosexuality is 99.99999% faith based.
about 1 year ago
Your arguement would make sense if those things were still in affect. Women’s rights? Slavery? Those have been changed, and not because the religious right wanted them to.
We haven’t had a non Christian president soley because of the “extereme right wing Christians.” There are plenty of reasonable people on the right, in the middle and on the left that would feel uncomfortable (however wrong they may be) with an aethist/muslim/druid president.
I think you are getting too hung up on the term “sin tax”. Point me to the bible passage that says vehicles that pollute too much are a sin…
We have a lot of religion in our history, of course. This comes (in my opinion) from our over sensitivity to the freedom of religion because Europe was so intolerant of it. When we founded our country, we made damn sure to protect religion. Unfortunately the scales went a bit far in the wrong direction, and now we need protection from the religious, but I digress.
But it’s OK. I’m OK with Josh (who, correct if I’m wrong, is not an American) telling me how the schools I attended are, and how the people in my country are. I certainly don’t have any clue myself! It’s why I come to this blog….
about 1 year ago
Audaciter (and anyone else):
“When we founded our country, we made damn sure to protect religion.”
Well, that is only half correct. In fact, they made damn sure to specify that no religion was to be in our government — in any way, and certainly with no laws: “make no law respecting . . ..” Only after the words to secure our government from religion, did they “make damn sure” to “protect” religion (and it really isn’t “protection” — its purpose was to make it private, only). ….. If you’re going to attempt to be “politcally correct” by trying to be “neutral,” then please do it with facts. (It’s all there in our Constitution/First Amendment.)
Also, as additional proof to what I said, they specifically stated there would be no “religious test” for any President and Vice-President and any other government official. I would say that’s protection more for no religion than “any/having” religion
[Article VI, paragraph 3:] “The Senators and Representatives before mentioned, and the Members of the several State Legislatures, and all executive and judicial Officers, both of the United States and of the several States, shall be bound by Oath or Affirmation, to support this Constitution; but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”
As I said, it’s all there written in our Constitution — so there’s no need for any “political correctness and niceness” regarding the religious.
about 1 year ago
perhaps we should regard people like this teacher as a character on reality tv, so incomprehensibly and flamboyantly misguided that we are to infer that they are not actually expressing their own view, but putting on a show to attract attention?
about 1 year ago
Saying christians are hypocrites is like saying gay men are attracted to men or that bald men have no hair.
about 1 year ago
Ah, slow down a bit here. You do know that there are lots of student LGBT groups that are actually started by christian and other faith groups? Even more important is the fact that they even go as far as fighting bigotry from members of their own faiths. Please do not fall in the polarized trap where supposedly one side is right and the other is right. It just isn’t that simple. Not all christians or other faith believers are bigots or hypocrites.
Look, in the end I don’t give a damn about what one believes or what religious group he or she belongs to but I do start to give a damn about what he or she does with that belief. That is where we must center our attention. That is what will make the difference in the end. Sorry if I sound preachy.
about 1 year ago
Ok, so maybe some Christians who don’t follow the bible strictly are more tolerant.Doesn’t change that Christianity (and other religions) breeds hate and intolerance,along with self-righteousness and arrogance. That is to be expected when a group of people believe that their god favors them,and that they’re special because of it,and that those who reject their god will die and suffer eternal torture.
about 1 year ago
“Homosexuality is found in over 450 species. Homophobia is found in only 1. Which one seems unnatural now?”
I love that quote.
about 1 year ago
I’ll bet the bitch (oops! did I say that out loud?) would never consider bringing LGBTQ people into her classroom to provide an alternate viewpoint. This is not about free speech at all. It’s about her privilege to impose her particular views on her captive audience.
On the other hand, I believe what she says on the open Internet is totally her own business.
I hate to Godwin myself (that means the first person who mentions nazis automatically loses the argument) but ever since Hitler the right-wing has been co-opting the tactics of the left-wing. Now even to oppose bigotry is itself called bigotry. We’re getting to the point where any words describing freedom and truth are becoming totally meaningless. Freedom is quickly becoming the freedom to oppress. Truth is being made relative the very people who claim to oppose relativism.
To me the only solution is to keep the free flow of ideas going.
about 1 year ago
“Congress shall make no law…etc.” The problem with hate speech is get to decide what’s hateful and what isn’t. Between the Queer and religious communities, there’s plenty of hate-counter-hate speech to go around. Just read the posts on this thread. One man’s hate is another’s opinion. For example, ” Blacks commit crimes all out of proportion to their population.” Racist? Statistics? Both? Neither? I’m not a mind reader and unless you’re a Betazoid you shouldn’t be either.
“Free Speech” is already restricted. Slander, libel, fraud, misrepresentation, incitement to riot, the antics of Lord Haw-haw and Tokyo Rose, and just yelling “FIRE!” in a crowded theater when there isn’t one can all land you in front of a judge. To add so vague a concept as “hate speech” is a verrrry slippery slope I’d rather not navigate.
I understand the pain that comes with teenage homosexuality – we all do -we’ve all been there. What wasn’t inflicted by clueless, heartless bullies was often inflicted by ourselves in the mental anguish of guilt, shame and confusion. And I am heartbroken about the suicides. But the preservation of LIBERTY is worth ALL our lives. I think the solution is more speech -more teaching- not less.
about 1 year ago
I am perfectly in favour of free speech, including even hate speech. But not on tax payers’ money. Her job as teacher is to teach whatever subject it is she teaches, and to lead by setting a respectable example. That is all. Her job as teacher is emphatically not to push her own religious or moral agenda, and indeed, in America it is flat-out illegal for her to teach her religion in a public school.
I think it is a mistake to focus too much here on the gay issue itself. Whether she is fulminating against gays, or blacks, or immigrants, or indeed even heterosexuals, the principle remains the same: she is going beyond what she has any right to do as teacher.
If she can be shown to be pushing a religious agenda, it will not take much more than a call to the ACLU to have her fired, whatever the community wants. Why? Because in America, teaching religion in school is illegal, whether the local community wants it to be or not. The local community is after all not paying her salary – the American public is, and until the American public collectively decides to amend the constitution, it is and remains illegal for a teacher to push a religious agenda in a public school.
So forget about voting in a poll. Find out what exactly it is she said or did, check whether it was illegal, and if so, have her fired. You don’t need public opinion on your side for that.
about 1 year ago
perhaps she should receive a few thousand get well cards… not to mention a mass of praying people in her frontyard wishing for her to be able to banish her mental demons…
just a bit of her own medicine, but wrapped in a friendly message and a nice pink bow tie
about 1 year ago
Reading her FB page it amazes me how she became a teacher, her grammar is appalling.
about 1 year ago
I for one am so glad when people are so vocal about who they are and the hatred they espouse. Please haters who want to drive children to suicide. Continue to show the world who you are because sooner or later the numbers will change, the tide will turn, and your people will be on the ropes. Your history will follow you. You will need us for employment, for security, and to save you from monsters… and knowing what you did when you had the power and majority, we might decide to leave you out in the cold in this new America of reason.
about 1 year ago
I think that all these “christians” have demons. they are obviously possessed! ‘-’
Where is Castiel when we need? u_u
about 1 year ago
What about Sam and Dean? They’re more than capable of extracting the demons.