“The answer to violence, is even more humanity”

Someone identifying himself as “a conservative Christian” has killed more than 90 people in Norway yesterday, most of them kids & teenagers.

The fact that Norway is the country with the highest quality of living & education, one of the wealthiest of the world and ranks among the top with the other Scandinavian countries when it comes to social fairness & equality makes it hard to understand what reason there possibly could be to drive someone to such actions.

The one thing giving me hope is to see the sane reactions of the Norwegians. The title of this post is a quote from Norway’s Prime Minister Jens Stoltenberg.


The island of Utøya, where at least 90 people have died after a gunman opened fire at a camp

In the safest, most boring country, the worst lone gunman shooting happens. The worst in the world, in history. But it will not make our country worse. The safe, boring democracy will supply him with a defense lawyer as is his right. He will not get more than 21 years in prison as is the maximum extent of the law. Our democracy does not allow for enough punishment to satisfy my need for revenge, as is its intention.

We will not become worse, we will be better. We lived in a land where this is possible, even easy. And we will keep living in a land where this is possible, even easy. We are open, we are free and we are together. We are vulnerable by choice. And we will keep on like that, that’s how we want to live. We will not be worse because of the worst. We must be good because of the best. Ola

  

171 thoughts on ““The answer to violence, is even more humanity””

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  2. “”It’s a double shock. 99 percent of Norwegians immediately believed this was a Muslim terror attack. When it turned out not to be, that was the second shock,” he said.”

    That statement reminded me of when the DC sniper was roaming up and down I95 and everyone thought he was a white guy till he was caught.

  3. Thank you Josh for posting something about this. As an american I saw what happened there and it just broke my heart. Its mind blowing that this shooting looks like its going to have more then twice the death count then any lone gunman shooting in American history. WE have this stuff happen to us, and in a way its easier because America is a bigger nation and we can blame the tragedy on all sorts of things.

    For me Scandinavia runs a society and lives by the kind of standards that I wish my own country would live by. The only thing that makes this even worse is thinking about all the amazing young lives that were ended yesterday. My heart goes out to all the families involved.

  4. The island is formed like a heart. That makes me cry.
    My deepest sympathy to all Norwegians.

  5. So sad. My heart goes to all Norwegians.
    My belief is that though a response to evil is needed to be sufficient, don’t lose ones humanity and open society and allow evil to triumph through the reaction as the usa has done.
    Best wishes

    1. in all honesty i didn’t have the heart to look = the full impact of the heartbreak would’ve been too much… altho’ i appreciate your posting the link.

  6. 21 years? That better be 21 years of solid torture. You killed nearly 100 people you don’t get off in 21 years, you don’t ever get out, or you die. I’m all for standards of law and humane proceedings, but 92+ fucking people died. No human being gets to kill that many innocent youth with his own hands and be out in 21 years. I full expect someone to shoot him down, though that is not even close to what he deserves.

      1. If he killed your children, I doubt you’d be so quick to get on your high horse. And this coming from someone who lives in a country that both tortures and has the death penalty.

        Tell me, would you give Hitler life in prison? Or Stalin?

        How many people does it take for someone to no longer have the right to live in this world? 200? 1000? 10,000? Millions?

        I draw the line at 92.

        1. Also you’re some arrogant twat to think wanting someone executed for killing 92 people is QUICK TO PUNISH?

          What golden tower do you live in?

        2. America is a big place. Just because the country practices torture and has the death penalty does not mean every American agrees.

          I am certainly against the death penalty. And I do not think a bunch of people can create a culture/ country and then justify the murder of other as something better, or less evil then the crime itself.

          In reality, its true. If I had kids, and they were killed by this guy I probably would want to see him dead, maybe even kill him myself. What I would want, or do in that situation doesnt matter. I would become no better then the man I killed. This is why justice systems exist. To provide fair justice to people, to keep the society at a place higher then the evils it tries to prevent. But in reality a murder for a murder is just shallow vengence.

          1. You have an Ivory tower sense of justice, there are people in this world who shouldn’t be allowed to live.

            Now he will live in a cell payed for by normal peoples taxes, fed by those taxes, perhaps get a TV, who knows. Tell me, is there justice in that? Perhaps he might get psychiatric help, take advantage of Norway’s lax laws and peoples fading memories.

            There is no perfect justice system, but taking his life is the only thing I can think off that gives him close to what he deserves.

            1. Yeah, and taking his life will require all sorts of appeals and years on death row. At least if Norway’s justice system is anything like the American justice system…

              But in all seriousness, you’ve got to consider that prison keeps people known to be dangerous to society off the streets. Surely that means we’re getting something for our tax money, right? The service of quarantining dangerous people.

            2. “Perhaps he might get psychiatric help…”
              Wait, that’s a bad thing? Fuck, I’m getting psychiatric help! I must have murdered so many people…

            3. You’re an idiot, read the context of what I said: “Perhaps he might get psychiatric help, take advantage of Norway’s lax laws and peoples fading memories”

              Its quite clear I meant for him to not get help. and live in psychiatric care, instead of solitary confinement for 70 years.

            4. I don’t know about Norway, but in Canada if you make a psychiatric defense for a crime you will get a potentially indefinite sentence. Basically you stay incarcerated until the doctors think you’re sane enough to be let go. Then usually you get to serve your normal prison sentence after that.

              Personally I don’t think Breivik sounds all that crazy. Obviously he’s evil and very wrong, but not crazy. To me crazy means his brain is broken somehow. From what he has said so far Breivik seems to know that what he did was wrong but he has justified it in his mind quite rationally (albeit based on incorrect premises).

              Sane people do incredibly evil things every day. It may be comforting to think you have to be crazy to kill a lot of people, but I don’t think that’s true. Look at all the genocides in history. I’ll just pick some at random, but do you think all those Turks, or Serbians, or Rwandans, or Sudanese suddenly went crazy and killed their neighbours, then became sane again later? No. They were perfectly sane the whole time; just as I’m sure Breivik is perfectly sane. Just to reiterate: sane and totally wrong.

        3. ANY negative-emotional response leads .. nowhere .. please try to understand that !!

          there IS a long-run-solution .. but it has to be done rationally, carefully + with knowledge .. read what i wrote a number of messages below pls.

    1. The 21 years apply only to his prison term, that doesn’t mean he will be free after these 21 years. If he is still deemed a threat to society after the 21 years (and this seems very likely) he will be kept in custody in one way or another.

      1. as in the “detained at her majesty’s pleasure” sense, for insanity?
        that would be wise. because a man filled with so much hate and evil Must be insane. otherwise we would all need to give up and commit collective hara-kiri.
        a very well reasoned and beautifully written editorial, josh. thanks.

  7. As others have said, my heart definitely goes out to all the good people of Norway who this tragedy has struck so personally. They most certainly did not deserve this. I’ve always felt that all the Scandinavian countries were/are the most peaceful and [politically] neutral countries around.

    “Norway … ranks among the top with the other Scandinavian countries when it comes to social fairness & equality makes it hard to understand what reason there possibly could be to drive someone to such actions.”

    RELIGION. I’m sorry to say, but something like this is always when, not if, it can/will happen because of religion (no matter which one). Yeah, yeah. I know, some of you will be so quick on the “save religion/it’s not all bad” bandwagon. But the fact remains, this is the primary background for all of these types of slaughter of innocent lives. And what’s so amazing, is that the “free” societies in the world refuse to acknowledge this fact and continually just protect all religions — no matter how much carnage they create.

    Again, I know the usual ones will quickly chime in and say I’m the nutcase because of my very vocal anti-religious views. Hello! Wake up and start counting your stupid “rosaries.” I’m pretty damn sure a lot of those 90 families will start having second thoughts about any damn religion and how “peaceful” they purport it to be.

    In the USA, we seriously need to rethink our taxing laws and stop offering businesses like these (and you’re stupid if you honestly think religions aren’t any type of businesses) tax-free status. If we can start “short-changing” these religions of their wealth, then we can start depriving them of their “power.”

    [Just recently, a catholic priest/bishop offered US$50 Million in cash -- solely for the purpose of buying a very beautiful "Crystal Cathedral" that is near the ocean front. With a church like this, they will now have available even more Millions of US Dollars from donations, et al, collected in the future from this church.]

    ” ‘It’s a double shock. 99 percent of Norwegians immediately believed this was a Muslim terror attack. When it turned out not to be, that was the second shock,’ he said.”

    That’s exactly why every religion needs to be looked at very carefully — at their sources — the churches, mosques and not at all the least, the priests, preachers, pastors, imams and others who do all this hate preaching for the most ignorant reasons. The right people need to sit in on these “sermons” and know how to pick up and understand the “code words” for hate and the encouragement of violence inside all these religions. Others will say it’s only how a “crazy” interprets it. That’s true but remember, there’s always the source of that intention standing at the pulpits.

    Again, some of you will say I’m crazy, but, look around on the Internet and what’s happening live like this terrible tragedy.

    1. “The Bible tells us to be like God, and then on page after page it describes God as a mass murderer. This may be the single most important key to the political behavior of Western Civilization.” -Robert Anton Wilson

    2. Really? Enough with the “blame religion” already. It’s obvious this person was disturbed, and religion had nothing to do with it. And shame on you for turning this tragedy into an opportunity to spout anything other than sympathy and empathy for those involved.

      1. “It’s obvious this person was disturbed, and religion had nothing to do with it.”

        Really? You actually believe your own bullshit? Are you truly saying that without religion this disturbed idiot would not have done this?

        Disturbed, yes. And it was his beliefs in religion that brought him over the edge. Get real.

        1. because it is obviouse that every one that is part of a religion is going to be an evil mass murderer “Really? You actually believe your own bullshit?” let me give you a hint people don’t need religion to go on a rampage. hitler’s reason for killing the jews was not religios. the columbine boys didn’t shoot up the school because “god told them”. Martin Bryant didn’t massacer the people of port arthur because the priest told him to. In truth they would have propably done it any way if they wern’t on their meds. after columbine there was a major cracki down on violent video games because they found out that the shooters enjoyed doom. don’t make the same mistake of creating your own scape goat to explain a horriblre situation. if he listen to his own religion that you say he was fanatical about then he would know that when he dies he will be burn in the most fiery parts of hell for all eternity for the unspeakable evily that he has committed

      2. He was worried about Muslims invading Europe. Religion had something to do with it.

    3. HERE WE GO AGAIN. Another zeal-filled anti-religion Penboy post. It’s not even the message of the post I disagree with; I dislike religion too. But you have this itch, this urge, to point out on every single blog post that RELIGION IS THE CAUSE OF EVERY EVIL THING THAT EVER EXISTED; because you don’t give a fuck about the victims, you don’t give a fuck about the people who died, you just want to parrot your anti-religious standpoint to people who do not care whether the gunman was religious or not, but are saddened over the 80 people he killed. All you care about is yourself and using any tragedy as a soapbox.

      And that’s why you’re a despicable human being. Not because you’re against religion, but because all you care about is preaching, like an Atheist Glenn Beck.

  8. Proxyman:The 21 years is like living in a house with alot of people,alot of the prisons here are waaaaaay to comfy for the criminals.But once he gets out he will not survive,everyone know his name and has seen his face.He wont even survive his first day as a free man.

    1. I strongly doubt that he will ever be a free man, he’ll be probably kept in a psychiatric hospital and that seems to be the right place for him anyway.

  9. A very sad event. But what a great speech from Stoltenberg,

    “We must never cease to stand up for our values.
    We have to show that our open society can pass this test, too,
    And that the answer to violence is even more democracy,
    even more humanity, but never naïveté.
    That is what we owe to the victims and to the those they hold dear.”

  10. Great speech indeed. I’m currently looking into obtaining a green card for Denmark.

  11. I try to be a Christian. I do not feel that I have succeeded in becoming a Christian, but I try. I read this blog every day. I have never commented before.

    The shooter was not a Christian. Jesus Christ taught that the Greatest Commandment was to “Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind; and to love your neighbor as yourself.” (Matthew 22:37-39) Then, when asked “And who is my neighbor?” Jesus told the Parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37).

    It should be noted that the Bible was written by human beings, and that Matthew, Mark, and John were Jews. The Jews hated the Samaritans, so loving a Samaritan was something Jews didn’t want to do. The story of the Good Samaritan appears only in the Book of Luke, and Luke was not a Jew. Human prejudice arises even in what the Biblical writers chose to include in their stories.

    But taken all together, the Bible simply teaches “love your neighbor as yourself.”

    It is fashionable among Gay people to excoriate Christians and Christianity. Unfortunately, too many so-called Christians provide the ammunition. But from my perspective, Gays and others who condemn Christians and Christianity are, themselves, what they say that they condemn — bigots.

    The shooter was not a Christian. Religion had nothing to do with the shooting. Evil exists, and this man was filled with evil.

    People who condemn religions need to take a real look at the world. Religious people are the ones who founded schools, founded hospitals, founded the Red Cross, who rush to provide disaster relief, etc.

    Anyone who writes that God was a mass-murdered reveals their own ignorance.

    I am grieving for the people in Norway. I am praying for the bigots who will seize this evil event to castigate religious people.

    1. To Robin501, janm, and MICHAEL below,

      I get very worried about statements such as “there does not exist evil or bad religion, only evil or bad people.” It tells me that you can’t recognize the possibility that your religion can have evil aspects to it. Even if you believe religion is inspired by God, I hope you’ll admit that religions are created by people, not God. The Council of Nicaea, the doctrinal disputes that split Shia and Sunni, Martin Luther nailing his theses to the church door, 16 year old Joseph Smith saying he found gold tablets in western New York — these are all acts of humans, not God. Even if you believe that your religion’s founders were “inspired” by God, and all those other religions were not, I hope you realize that all religions, including yours, are ultimately the creation of human beings. As a creation of humans, all religions therefore can contain evil as part of their doctrines and practice. All religions have some good in them, but they also all have some evil in them. That, unfortunately, includes your religion.

      Recognizing the evil possible from your own religion is so very important because it is the only way for the very religious to avoid perpetuating that very evil. History is rife with examples of the unspeakable evil created by religious people so sure of their own religion’s rightfulness, that they can’t recognize the evil inherent in their religion’s doctrines.

        1. As an atheist, do you really stand by your statement “there does not exist evil or bad religion”? What is your reply to my statement “As a creation of humans, all religions therefore can contain evil as part of their doctrines and practice.”?

      1. the basics of christanity are pure, ” do unto other as i have done unto you” plain and simple. that is basically what jesus said “in a nutshell’ if you look at what jesus says ha says nothng about killing for god or “you must do this or your going to hell” it is every thing that comes before and after that is uneeded in the bible. which is were people pluck stuff, twist it, then give an entirly unchristian answer. if the shooter were a true christian then he would live his life by that single princple. and as judged by his actions he was not remotelyt christian

        1. Unfortunately, you can’t just re-define “Christianity” as the portion that you believe is basic and pure. Revelations, which I hope you recognize is a scary and crazy book, is just as much a part of the Bible as Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Christianity is not just defined by some of its doctrines, but by the whole of its doctrines, its history, and the practices of believers who claim they are “Christians”.

          I really wish I could redefine “America” to be Jefferson, Lincoln, Jazz, and the Marshall Plan, but I can’t. “America” is also slavery, “Manifest Destiny”, gun nuts, and George W. Bush.

          1. yes but one is a country as the other is an incoporeal set of beliefs. christianity has to do with (as the name suggests) christ. it is what something stands for is what is important, just like america is “land of the brave and the home of the free” it should be the good that is remebered, scandanavier should not be remeber for the single most devastating lone gunman attack in the history of the world but rather how the country and it’s citisens reacted to the attack and nobely protecting it freedoms, that many other countries would have given up in the light of such an attack

  12. Breivik was a conservative Christian in the same way that Hitler was a traditionalist.

    This is not the time for cheap shots.

    Maybe you could wait till after the funerals to utilize this to push your personal agenda.

    1. This has nothing to do with any agenda. I mentioned it (just like all newspapers reporting on it did as well btw) because pretty much everyone was assuming it must have been a muslim when they first heard about it.

  13. Robin, Yaweh/God/Allah not a mass murderer? Tell that to the Antedeluvians, the Moabites and their livestock, the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, and others. The Judaeo-Christian-Islamic religions ( yes, Islam is based on the Old Testament) have been killing off their rivals practically since their beginnings. The Old Testament is a propaganda document that puts Göbbels to shame. The New Testament was compiled from myriad documents, at least one of dubious origin, 300 or more years after the fact when all other views had been eliminated or gone underground. Almost any atrocity can be justified by sacred texts.
    That said, my heart goes out to the people of Norway and I applaud them for their “Christlike”reaction.

    1. “Robin501/janm/Martin [et al]: Yaweh/God/Allah not a mass murderer?”

      I am the lord your god, you shall have no other gods before me.

      CRACK!! CRACK!! (That’s the sound of lightning — relegated to the special effects crews of all the Hollywood movies.)

      That pretty much says it the way it is in religion, doesn’t it? Believe in me, or I’ll strike you dead! (And since I’m just a figment of your stupid imagination, I’ll have stupid humans that can’t think for themselves do all the killing and maming for me and “tell them” they must do all this “in my name.”)

      Back to your regularly scheduled “life.”

          1. If there’s a form of religious Godwin’s Law then I’m using it now, you’re coming across like the atheist version of the Westboro Baptist Church, you only believe your logic and refuse to listen to anyone else’s and you look down on anyone even remotely religious just like they look down on anyone who even remotely agrees with homosexuality. I’m perfectly fine with atheists and I’m quite religious myself but you sir are coming across as another arrogant, douchey internet troll who I really shouldn’t feed but damn do you piss me off.

            …Amen.

          2. “Believe in me, or I’ll strike you dead” sounds an awful lot like “Believe in me, or you’re too stupid to see reality.”

            You have more in common with religious zealots than you think.

            1. ha precisly my thoughts. pen boy is to religion as what westboro is to homosexuals

            2. Thank you so much…. now I gotta clean up the coffee I spit all over my keyboard and monitor as I read that….

              Guess I should be grateful it didn’t come out of my nose.

  14. From the article linked in the original post: “The bombing of the government building in Oslo has already drawn comparison with Timothy McVeigh’s attack on the Oklahoma City federal building 16 years ago. [...] McVeigh was convicted on federal murder charges and executed in 2001.”

    Let us be glad that Norway has evolved past such vengeance. Two wrongs can never make a right, least of all when it is a government which claims to be just, which claims to be acting in the interests of society, is the one performing the “wrong”. Even if it be death of someone who has himself caused death, the act of killing can never be justified. Every human, no matter how evil they may seem, is still a human just like you and I. We should have sympathy for this murderer, and not anger or hate, for someone who has lost touch with the very nature of love and compassion to such an extent as to perform such an act of violence must be a very lonely and saddened person indeed.

    Let us also not make the mistake of blaming a group for the actions of a member of that group. This man was a Christian, just as the attackers on 9/11/01 were Muslims, but the majority of Muslims and Christians are peaceful people. There are radicals in all religions, and yes, there are also radical atheists who are just as capable and willing to perform extreme acts of violence in alignment with their beliefs. There are parts of the Bible, Quran and other holy books that do seem to condone violence, but there are also other parts which preach the most loving of peace. Most followers know the difference. Within all religions and non-religions there are radically different interpretations and sects, please do not make the mistake of associating an entire religion with the radical, violent sects within that religion. Do we think that because the yew tree possesses poison berries that all fruit yielding trees must also be deadly to eat?

    This was truly a horrible event. My sympathy is with everyone involved: the victims, the perpetrator and anyone who has been influenced by this to commit an act of violence, be it to emulate what has been done or to commit revenge.

  15. Once someone knew what was going on, couldn’t they have picked up something & hurled it at the attacker?! Just like with our 9/11 airliner terrorists, why didn’t anyone take off their shoes (or women swing their purses, which have a longer range than a box cutter) & wing ‘em at the terrorists’ heads!

  16. 10 people are the latest figures. Not 90. And it’s by a Norwegian Christian.

    So far. This is what we know.

    1. The latest figures are 92. 7 from Oslo, 85 from Utøya. 4-5 missing (at least) from the Utøya shootings, and 20+ in hospital fighting. Please do not post any figures that’s not said by the police at this moment.

      1. I wonder how many innocent people have died this weekend because of wars that Bush and Obama are responsible for and that we will never hear about? This guy in Norway is nothing by comparison. He’s insignificant by comparison to what is going on elsewhere in the world this very moment. Just as senseless, but still insignificant. The difference is that people like Bush and Obama are big shots and beyond the law. How do you like that my friends?

        1. You need to get your shit straight. Obama is not responsible for any wars. And don’t say “Libya” — he’s not responsible for it — he’s only helping out NATO — they’re running the show. Obama is trying to wind down the wars that Bush started. Know what you’re talking about first.

          1. If you believe that PenboyX2, then you are even more deluded and ignorant of the facts than the nutty Christians. Obama has extended every idiocy that Bush began. Why do you think people are calling Obama “Bush Lite” and “Bush II”? He even re-instituted the Patriot Act and made it even worse than what Bush had done. Bush and Obama both belong behind bars.

            1. You obviously have no idea of what the President can and can’t do. It’s CONGRESS that did all of that. A President can’t just willy-nilly do any of what you claim Obama did. He can recommend and “lobby” for some ideas, but he can’t do those things without Congress approval. And the “reasons” Obama recommend(s/ed)/continued any of what Bush did would take way too much to explain.

              As weird as this may sound, you should rent/buy the DVDs of the past Series, “The West Wing.” Yes, it’s based on “fictional” scripts, but it also follows logical and accurate “methods” that our government uses and it stays very well with in legal boundaries.

              You need to learn about “delusion” and “ignorance” before you go slinging those words around at anyone. And learn about your own [American] “social studies/civic lessons” — you’re an American — so show some intelligence.

            2. What’s funny is, hasn’t it been a Democratic Congress that’s done all of that? Or am I wrong?

          2. According to the constitution (article 1, section 8, which can be read here: http://www.usconstitution.net/xconst_A1Sec8.html ), congress is SUPPOSED to hold the power to declare war, but the current war in Libya was “declared” by the president, Barack Obama. It doesn’t matter if it is led by NATO; it is Obama who got America involved in it and not congress. That is in every way equivalent to Obama declaring war. It’s kind of like… if my friends say “hey let’s go kill some people” and I agree to go along, does that mean I’m not responsible? Of course even if congress had voted on it I don’t think that would make it okay… but at least it wouldn’t be illegal, not illegal by the same law anyway.

            That is why representative Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) is leading a bipartisan effort to end the illegal war in Libya. For more information see this article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/jul/06/libya-nato1

            This is really getting off topic from the original blog post… but I felt compelled to mention this.

            1. Good you brought this up Therion. But I doubt PenboyX2 will pay any attention to it. He has a completely closed mind and does not want to be confused by the FACTS.

  17. The murderer describes himself as “pro-gay” and “pro-israel”.
    This is really disturbing for a conservative christian. Well, he IS disturbed…

    1. Yes Inny. I know how disturbing it is for a conservative Christian to hear that someone is “pro-gay”. Many Christians even say that homosexuality is WORSE than murder.

  18. To Robin 501.I well not try to add to your comment. You said it so beautifully. I well say a prayer for PenboyX2. He has nothing but hatred for Religion.I believe he has not even love for himself. He sounds more RIDICULOUS with each comment. Somewhere in his life he must have been hurt very badly. I well say a prayer for him tonight. I well pray that God well open his eyes to the truth. Religion is not evil,but man can be evil.

    1. It’s a nice thought that you muttering to your imaginary friend in the sky can give penisbreath some peace.

      If it works, I may even start to believe.

      Honestly all you sad deluded xtians are just as bad as the catlicks trying to defend priests bumming choirboys.
      This guy was a fundie nut-job operating on an anti-muslim agenda.

      I am so proud of Norway,

      ” We will not be worse because of the worst. We must be good because of the best.”

      This shows just what man can achieve.

      If only amerika had this response to 911, think how much better off we all would be today.

  19. Can I, as a Norwegian, ask for people not to discuss religion or race here. I know that the terrorist does identify himself as one of the many christian ways. But that is not relevant to this case, neither are skin color or any other thing like it.

    This is a time for respect, to honor the children, all the way down to 7yrs old that was killed by this man. To honor the dead from the bomb.

    We will fight this our own way, with openess and democracy, everyone should be able to raise their voice and tell just what they mean, even how wrong or right the opinion might be, but it is not the time for that yet, now it is time for sorrow and honor. The discussion can wait to Monday. This is a sad weekend in Norway, and we all stand together, whatever our religious or political views are. The fight will start after this weekend.

    Thanks!

    1. Myrvold, I agree. Let us have only nice thoughts.

      I think this accused man is very handsome. Wow! When I first saw his picture, I thought what a beautiful guy! No one has mentioned that yet so I thought I would bring it up. Is there anyone else who would like to have sex with him? I’ll bet he’s really hot in bed. Look at that beautiful face and eyes. Wow!

      1. I thought he looks remarkedly like Julian Assange. But I have no other interest in him.

        1. Well, I guess he’s just not your type PenboyX2. But I think he’s really hot and still think he’d be wild in bed. I’ve always found that these nutty Christians are great once you get them in bed and get their pants off.

  20. PenboyX2 is absolutely correct. The monotheistic religions are projections of psychotic minds and embraced by very sick and deluded followers.

    Imagine a fucking god who throws someone into eternal Hell for having jerked off. This is what they teach! They even say the desire to have sex is as bad as committing the act. Don’t you remember Jimmy Carter quoting the Bible about that? This god of the Jews, Christians and Muslims is the sickest of all human delusions and the most dangerous.

    1. what part of irrelevant do you barrow-pushing nutters – pro AND anti-religion not get?
      Quit your bitching, find another platform for it. At the moment your bilious outpourings merely show utter disrespect for the dead, and disrespect for this blog and its writer.
      Write about humanity, write about remorse, write about sympathy. Anything else, please go find an Appropriate outlet for your venom. ALL of you.

  21. Oh shut the fuck up, God you ignorant bitches are annoying as shit. It’s like the only thing you can think about is finding some way to support your own bias…. it doesn’t matter what the hell the dude affiliated with. HE KILLED SOME 90 PEOPLE. It takes a lot more than “religion” to turn a man into a sociopath. His own mental instability HAS NOTHING to do with what he affiliates with. Something in his head was screwed up and through religion or whatever means, something was going to fuel the illusions in his mind. You people are so fucking quick to try and spout your shit because of your own insecurities that you can’t even stop for a second and see what’s going on around you. 90 FUCKING PEOPLE DIED! Get it, stop being so concerned about your damn self, and your own damn opinion. There’s not a person here who can tell me there haven’t been just as many atheist, agnostic, catholic, christian, muslim, or any other affiliation, psychopaths as the next. No one opinion, or group of people are “better” than the next. Just get the fuck over it.

  22. When I first heard about this on NPR this morning I could not believe my ears so I emmediately looked into MB’s. This is just not supposed to happen anywhere in Scandinavia. I cannot imagine what it would feel like to be Norwegian at the moment. I know I am personally feeling numb and a long way from a solid opinion. I know Scandinavia in general has had to deal with many changes and adjustments over the past decade. But my initial emotional response remains to be numb. I just do not want to believe it.

    1. I’m trying to look for something positive to say about all this Bruce. I think you have to admit that this guy is really good looking. He is really, really sexy.

      1. Sorry Larry. One armed man on such a tiny island killing defenseless kids who trusted him and had almost nowhere to run, I see no beauty in that. He is like satin personified.

  23. I can’t believe people are actually making sexual remarks about a mass child-murderer 2 days after he butchered all these people. Maybe it’s just me, but that seems very wrong.

  24. Look guys, I was trying to find something positive to say. Hasn’t there been enough hatred spewed here already? The name of this post is “The answer to violence is even more humanity.” OK?

    The most human thing in the world is an erotic attraction. It overcomes all obstacles. I stand by what I have said. This guy is really good looking and he looks like he would be hot in bed.

  25. As it seems impossible for certain people here to NOT discuss religion, I will quote the terrorist’s own manifest! From page 1284

    “Distinguishing between cultural Christendom and religious Christendom – reforming our suicidal Church

    “If you have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God then you are a religious Christian. Myself and many more like me do not necessarily have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ and God. We do however believe in Christianity as a cultural, social, identity and moral platform. This makes us Christian.
    A majority of Christians, especially liberal, humanist Christians oppose the doctrines of self defence. I believe that self defence is a central part of Christianity as documented in another part of this book. The modern day pacifist Christianity is among other things a result of our current regimes and their deliberate influence of the Church. They castrated and made the Church impotent and irrelevant, we will rejuvenate it by implementing our own reforms. But pragmatism will be the basis for which direction we chose to go. A strong church (on certain areas) is essential for the unity of our European countries.”

    In other words, he wasn’t christian in his belief in God, he looked at himself as a christian because of the traditions.

  26. To anyone in Norway who may know any of the victims of this tragedy. This is a period of morning and I wish you and yours well during this difficult time.

  27. As far as I’m concerned he rendered any of his views or beliefs of absolutely no consequence whatsoever when he killed. Whatever you believe, whatever you think, taking innocent lives is unequivocally wrong. No agenda, motto, or ignorant and self-deluded interpretation of any religion can ever justify murder – especially that of kids.

    As for only expressing hatred, well, sorry – but hate is the only thing I feel when I think about this man.

  28. The minute I first saw his picture in the news I marveled at how good looking he is. That cannot be denied.

    And judging from Myrvold’s quote he certainly wrote very well. We can say he was misguided, but nevertheless, the fact is that he is beautiful and wrote lucidly.

  29. I can’t believe what I’m reading about this man from certain folks? ” I think he’s really hot and still think he’d be wild in bed”. Are you fucking insane? What next? A glowing tribute to that Macho Dominant Thug, Ernst Rohm? Seig Heil anyone?

    This is nuts. Again my heart goes out to all those who have been affected by these evil events. To the dead, injured, survivors and bereaved.

    Whiterabbit.

    1. So much blind hatred here. Why can’t someone say this guy is good looking. That is true. Maybe he would be good in bed too. But no, everyone has to look only at the negative and vow vengeance and hatred.

      What’s the point of bringing up Ernst Röhm? At least he liked boys if nothing else good can be said about him, and he was a big supporter of the Wandervögel.

      Let’s take the topic of this post to heart and at least agree that “the answer to violence is even more humanity”. Haven’t you all had enough hatred for one day?

      1. I respectfully suggest that a period of mourning is in order and consistant with a desplay of humanity. At least through the weekend. Positive comments about the perpetrator would not set well with those who are in mourning as anger and resentment is a part of that process.

        1. If you had the least bit of humanity in your heart Bruce, you would be mourning for all of those involved in this tragedy. Do you mean to say that one cannot mourn the fate of the obviously deranged man who is now in custody as well as those who have been maimed and killed? My sympathies are with all those who have been touched by this in any way whatsoever.

          And who are you to speak for all those in mourning? You sound like a pompous ass, typical of those in your profession.

          1. If anyone has sympathy for the insane piece of garbage who did this, I’ve got one thing to say…. you have serious problems… people take things way too far. 90 people died because of him…. because he CHOSE to take lives. He deserves nothing but the worst. I’d prefer to see him dead. Is it seriously coming to a time where people don’t have to pay consequences for their actions? Humanity is getting weak. There is no justice in that…. I can guarantee you if I ran up to people you cared about and filled them with bullets, your tune would change. Easy to talk all this bullshit when you’re sitting at home at your computer… how about being one of the people who had to witness 90 lives being taken…. then you can talk about “humanity”.

            1. I believe there are trolls among us and I suspect that the comments about how attractive the shooter is are sick jokes intended to provoke us.

              The “humanity” that we need is not to descend into a bloodthirsty mob, but to stand by our morals, whatever they may be. Personally, I hope that if my loved one was gunned down by a madman (more on that later) I would be able to let the system of my civilization take its course. Forgiving is another matter and I’m not going to pretend it would be remotely easy, but it would be my goal. Not for the killer’s benefit, but only for me. Hatred is a terrible thing to carry around inside and you may feel you need to do it to honour the dead; but it does the dead no honour to ruin your life in their name.

              As far as the killer goes, it’s too bad our “default” culture doesn’t have a strong enough emphasis on doing no harm. I think the average person doesn’t need to be told that it’s wrong to hurt his or her fellow human, so the lack of strong messages is usually not a problem. However when someone strays from average, there’s not much to lead him back on track. In this guy’s case, it looks like there was stuff to lead him further astray (I’m not saying anything told him to kill, but that stuff fed his dehumanizing of others).

              I’ve admitted on Milk Boys before to having “bad thoughts” but I have also filled my brain with Jesus (although I’m a atheist), lots of humanist philosophers, and Buddhism. I also have strong psychiatric medications. The point is when the shit comes I have the tools to deal with it. My failsafe is an agreement with myself that I will kill myself before hurting someone else. The punishment in hell for suicide has got to be less than for murder.

              None of the killers we read about here and elsewhere have the tools to deal with the evil within them. If they did then wouldn’t hear about them. I envision public service announcements that say “Considering murder? Try the Buddha or Jesus instead.” or “You don’t have to be god’s messenger; try Perphenazine.” or even “Want to kill someone? Start with yourself.” Seriously, though I guess having a telephone help line to call might be more constructive. The point is I’ve never seen anyone reach out to people contemplating bad things to maybe help them down before they explode.

              Having said all that, I’m sure most bad people are 100% convinced they’re actually the good guys and totally sane.

    2. I absolutely agree with Whiterabbit on both counts. People posting stuff like that should take a look at themselves in the mirror.

      All my deepest sympathies to those affected by this insane act.

      1. I don’t think making a passing comment on someone’s physical appearance is related to their despicable crimes against humanity. I mean, I’m sure someone thought Hitler was attractive at some point.

  30. I read about this in the Wall Street Journal while at work yesterday but they said it was something like 18 or 19 people that were killed, I’m curious about the discrepancy? Maybe the official count went drastically up between when the article was written and the paper made it to the news-stand?

    At any rate, it’s nice to see that there’s someplace that’s not eager to jump on the bandwagon of blaming the media, movies, and music for something like this.

  31. There are no words to describe the anger I feel over this. I want him dead. People that are against the death of this man have known no tragedy. I feel sorry for those who have died and for the survivors. It will be a lifetime struggle for them to have survived something like this. More may die from injuries. Even more will die from injuries of the mind later in life. There is no psychological recovery for the victims. I speak from experience.

  32. it is about time we realize, that we have a specific kind of people among us : the psychopaths.

    these make up about 3 % at most of population. the sad thing is : we are still powerless in determining their existence early enough. in kindergarten we have the chance to .. and simply by tests that are in fact in the making, but : how to present such ‘an ordeal’ to parents of kids ?

    this kind of massacres is reason enough .. no ?? this guy should / could have been acknowledged, separated + treated in kindergarten-time. period. it is a fact.

    please hear .. it is a fact !

    as could have happened with hitler + stalin + … etc.

  33. Robert, I couldn’t put it better myself. You have said everything I feel about this. The same people that belittled my experience of seeing my cousin stabbed 22 times and having his throat slit in front of me, (I was 12), would probably cry over a fucking split nail. As long as it doesn’t affect them, that’s all right?

    Selfish cunts.

    Whiterabbit.

    1. If the law sytem was about revenge you would have a point. But at least in most european countries it isn’t. Which is why it really does not matter how much you would like to kill people because to a trauma in you past but much more to protect society in a way which does not damage it even more. Btw – funny that you call other people selfish cunts when the way you are arguing is most egocentric based on your very own experience and has no insight to offer for people who were not involved in you personal tragedy. The earth does not revolve exclusively around you and you past.

      1. Wow. What it must be like to have your simple life tape. Anything of any significance ever happen to you? Yes? No? What age are you and what are the worst things to have ever happened to you? Between the age of 10 and 11 I lost my Father, Mother and Brother to cancer. I was adopted then by my Maternal Aunt. 13 months later my cousin was murdered and after the funeral she committed suicide. I ended up in care at 12, for the next 4 years. Used as a punchbag by some and a cumbag by others. So hows your life? And you call me a selfish cunt? Grow a set of balls and swap lives then.

        Bastard.

        Whiterabbit.

        1. And how do you think your fucked up life enables you to know the ultimate truth about everything?

          The thing is, it really does not matter how many of your family members were killed in which way, in what way you were abused and whether you can eat ten fried eggs in one minute. Judging from you abilities concerning drawing logical conclusions it seems that you are rather biased by your passed and unable to have one clear thought.

          And in fact I did not call you anything, since I have learned some manners in my simple life so far.

          1. “The thing is, it really does not matter how many of your family members were killed in which way …” …/… “Judging from you abilities concerning drawing logical conclusions it seems that you are rather biased by your passed and unable to have one clear thought.”

            You pass amazing “judgement” for not having close members of your family killed/lost. He’s not being “selfish” at all. Here’s a challenge to YOU: Come back after several members of your immediate family have been brutally killed or lost because of something like cancer/disease. Then try to tell us the same thing.

            Also, MULTIPLY that trauma by a factor of X just because you are so young that you couldn’t possibly fully understand the loss of so many, so close in your life. But you can’t or won’t — because you will be lucky that nothing like that will have happened to YOU.

            OK, now you can be “selfish” because you still have your immediate family and you won’t need to endure such trauma.

            Your head is filled with roses and honey and you appear to not understand REALITY and probably never will (and my guess is probably do to some religion).

            1. Penboy – where exactly did I write that I would think different from whiterabbit if my life was as fucked up? I did not write that, and do you know why? Because it does not matter. His past explains why he is unable to understand the basic principles of humanism but it does not make him automatically right as he always tries to make everyone believe by telling that story over and over again. Just like someone who lost an aunt more wouldn’t be even more right than him because of more suffering.

              And by the way – I don’t practice any religion. I am just one of those people who think that free choice of religion does not mean that everybody should be forced to take on the religion of atheism, as you. Just like those annoying missionaries in the pedestrian zones and shopping malls you are running around and rub your believe and deformed idea about “reality” into everybody’s face. But let me guess – you are allowed to do that because some priest once fucked your brains out when you were ten and after that your grandma died? That would explain your stubborn hatred of things you don’t understand as well as your lack of brains.

  34. It’s sad that some people (outside of Norway) would like to see the state killing Breivik.

    How many dead kids would it bring back?

    What would it be good for?

    Societies who let the law kill people just prove that they aren’t any better than the people they murder. An inhuman act like murder doesn’t become right by reproducing it.

    We rather have to set an example in such cases and demonstrate that we won’t become the same as people like Breivik. Keeping our freedom, not becoming a bunch of oppressive, fearful hysterics is the only way to defeat people like him and I’m so glad to see that Norway is certain to do just that.

    1. @Josh,
      A lot of people foaming at the mouth in their responses here and calling for vengeance, I suspect are very dangerous themselves.

      “Distrust everyone in whom the impulse to punish is powerful.”
      -Nietzsche

    2. “Societies who let the law kill people just prove that they aren’t any better than the people they murder.”

      I’m sorry, but this statement is ridiculous. Do you really believe that people who believe in revenge as a moral principle are equal to those who believe taking innocent lives and torturing innocent people is justified?

      Criminals are qualitatively different from innocent people. If you believe they have the same rights as innocent people, how is locking Anders up for 21 years not oppressive? What gives the State the right to take away his human rights? The answer is that he gave them up when he went on a murderous rampage and TRULY violated human rights. He is a terrorist and a war criminal in a war of his own invention.

      You need to think harder about your belief system if you blindly accept the notion that the human rights that we invented are inalienable. They obviously aren’t, which is why civilized societies have justice systems at all.

      You are not a victim of this man. The only victims of this man are the people he killed, injured, and scarred for life, and their families and friends. This is between him and them. They all had something taken from them and the taker should pay. He asked for it. You don’t take dozens of innocent lives without giving up some of your own rights.

      You ought to turn your empathy to the people who deserve it. Capital punishment is one of the few things Europe gets wrong. Norway could keep its freedom and democracy while punishing an evil man who gave up his right to live. To think otherwise is laughable. How is it oppressive to punish the guilty? Oppression is when innocent citizens are surveilled and punished for committing victimless crimes. His crimes had victims.

      The families, friends, and survivors deserve to be reassured that those lost were worth more than the “man” who committed these horrible atrocities.

      1. Murder is murder.

        You see, that’s the thing about the legal system in Europe: It’s not about punishment (something that also applies to the German system by the way).

        And your notion that some people are worth more than others is rather disgusting. You will find that something that is traditionally upheld by Scandinavians is the concept of egalitarianism, the belief that we’re all equal, that we all deserve the same rights, no matter what. And this is an idea that I believe should be defended especially in cases like this one.

        It’s easy to preach about an open & free society when everyone is well. But to live up to these ideals in hard times like these is what defines true humanity. And that Norway and its people are obviously well aware of this honours the memory of the dead a lot better than the blind revenge yet another murder would be.

        1. Obviously none of you listened to my arguments. It’s no use talking to blockheads.

          1. Ah, I see. You don’t like our responses, so you’re going to play the old “you’re wrong because you don’t agree with me” card and then huff out of the the debate.

            You’d make a good Tea Partier if you were American.

            1. I’d argue that your fundamentalist approach has more in common with the Tea Party I despise.

      2. Locking offenders up as long as they are still considered dangerous is the least harmful way to protect society. And even that can only be done based on laws which were established on a democratic basis. And there we are in agreement – offenders give up a certain part of their rights when committing crimes. But it has to be a reasonable part, which means: if there is conflict between the people’s rights and his, his rights rank lower. No rights are harmed just to establish a punishment.

        Although it comes up over and over again, I don’t think there is any point in wondering what the victims or relatives would do if they were allowed to decide about the punishment. This is simply not the philosophy behind the law system. Quite the opposite: those people are not allowed to be part of the judges because they would be biased.

        The attempt of punishing the murderer to even out the pain would be rather futile. There is no way of killing him as often as he has killed. So if you really wanted to go down that road, you would end up in some medieval world of torture which might would do more justice to the dead but destroy the world of the living. The question is not just what the killer loses – actually the killer does not deserve to be that important at all – but also what society loses.

        Also the killer *wanted* to push Norway in that direction. He asked for it, as you put it. So calling for some increased punishment and shifting the society into the direction he wanted would mean that he succeeds with his mission.

      3. “Do you really believe that people who believe in revenge as a moral principle are equal to those who believe taking innocent lives and torturing innocent people is justified?”

        Yes. Especially the way with some of these people think. Wanting to commit murder is bad enough. Then you have people that go all out, saying things like “I WANT TO NAIL HIS EYES TO A BOARD THROUGH THE BACK OF HIS HEAD, AND FORCEFEED HIM SHIT WITH A RUSTY METAL TUBE.” And they say it with the kind of zeal and complete lack of remorse that the person they want revenge on would have used. Maybe even more, depending on how remorseful the criminal is.

        It’s kind of funny; if you kill, say, your ex-girlfriend out of rage for revenge, you’re a monster, but if the state kills someone out of revenge, they’re saving society. That’s a pretty telling double standard no one wants to admit.

        “Norway could keep its freedom and democracy while punishing an evil man who gave up his right to live.”

        On the other hand, maybe they have their astounding freedom because they are a peaceful non-violent society and you don’t see the mass murders you see in other countries because violence is just something that doesn’t cross their mind. And this would be a step away from that. Your ideas are poisonous to this country’s freedom, not helpful.

        1. Slaying a monster is not murder. What makes us human is our humanity. It does not make me a monster to want justice.

          If my ex-girlfriend killed someone in cold blood, I witness it, and the state won’t kill her, it wouldn’t be wrong to kill her. It would be my responsibility in fact.

          When someone treats human life like dirt, they should be treated like dirt.

          1. “Slaying a monster is not murder.”

            Are you a poe? No one can be this stupid, right? “Killing someone is not killing someone.” That is what you are saying.

            “What makes us human is our humanity.”

            And killing people is not humane. Thanks for helping my argument.

            “It does not make me a monster to want justice.”

            Justice is not punishment. Justice is not revenge. You do not warp justice into what you want it to mean.

            “It would be my responsibility in fact.”

            And then you would be arrested for murder because murder is only legal when the state does it. You would be a victim of your own hypocritical government. And then you would say “I was just getting revenge!” But the people would have no sympathy for you; you are not a state murderer, and the state is the only class of murderers they have sympathy for, even if a citizen does the exact same thing.

            “When someone treats human life like dirt, they should be treated like dirt.”

            Then who is going to treat you like dirt for treating the murderer like dirt? Regardless of his incredibly terrible actions, he is still a human being. Biology doesn’t give a shit about how many people you’ve killed.

  35. @Josh
    The thoughts you expressed here are very different from the majority of Americans. And it seems to be an attitude that defines much of Scandinavia.

  36. As tasteless as those “good looking killer” comments are, it seems like that was part of the staging. Indeed the weirdo seems to have posted pictures on his facebook account which were aimed at being used by the media. So while it seems he does not succeed at pushing the society into some conservative direction, he is very good in orchestrating the media.

    Can someone from Finland tell, whether the news over there use some common sense or are they just becoming willing propaganda instruments of the killer like in the rest of europe? Would be interesting to see how much of the finish spirit comes from the political leaders and how much of it is found as the lowest level – the readers of tabloid papers.

  37. please wake up everybody :

    why give this psycho all this attention or be sentimental about a nobel response ??

    read what is written 7 messages back. that is what can make a difference in the long run …

    ps : hidden psychos are a 2,5 % of population, so .. one finds one in every crowded bar .. c ?

  38. Wow. What a good reply tape. I shouldn’t be a self centred bastard airing my past on this site, about things that are no concern of mine? mmm lets see. Can I swap lives with you? What age are you and what trials have you been through yet? Shortly before my 11 birthday my Mother and Father died within 23 days of each other. My 19 year old brother died 8 months later. My Maternal Aunt, a widow lived across the road with her only child, a son, a few years older than me. She adopted me, and I started to feel loved and safe again, as any 11 year old would. Within 14 months my cousin was murdered in front of my eyes, and my Aunt shortly afterwards, (my only relative, as my Mother and her were only children, whose parents died when they was in her late teens, and my Father was an orphan), took a length of rope and hanged herself, (I found her). So for the next 4 years I was placed in a state orphanage, where some boys a little older than me used me as a Punchbag, and the older boys used me as a cumbag, as did several male adults.

    Now please, can we swap lives, as even though I am trying to make something of my life, I still wake up screaming most night, and I still receive medication.

    Sorry from being “Egocentric”. The next time I read something that reminds me of my past, I will think of rainbows and unicorns, and comment about how good looking any mass murderer will be. As I said, sorry for being a selfish cunt. Next time I wont give a fuck about anything and maybe live in lala land like you.

    Whiterabbit.

    1. well boy .. life is hard .. for some unbearably so. congrats that you still ‘ kick ass ‘ .. really, well done son ! hold on to that part of you that is … eternal. do your utmost best to find it and stay there .. never let it go, it will always be yours .. congrats again.

    2. Yes, you know how to discuss in a contructive way. Come on, strike me down with your sharp sword of your… self-pity.

      If you want to prove that you are not egocentric, talk about something else than yourself, which you seem incapable of. And even further: you don’t even realize, that you are just talking about yourself. As interesting as the story of your fucked up life might be – it just does not matter in this discussion. So perhaps it would indeed be better if you didn’t give a fuck, since you don’t seem to be able, to add any remotely valid point.

      1. completely disagree here .. this guy is proof of what psychos do in life and as such a valuable contribution here. period sir ..

    3. Whiterabbit, you can bare your soul to the world and there will always be people who will regard your pain as they would something they found under a rock; then maybe they’ll piss on it. I hope you realise that this has little to do with your intrinsic worth.

      Personally, I value knowledge earned through experience far more than I value a priori (thinking) knowledge. It seems like I’m always writing about myself too (like now!), but when you value experience that’s what happens. How can I presume to speak from any point of view but my own? How can any of us?

      BTW, I really think the initial comments about how the killer was good looking were a troll. They oozed facetiousness to me.

      1. trav .. you are misinformed about this phenomenon called psychopathy (or sometimes sociopathy). it is a very specific psychic disorder that they didnt find any treatment for yet. google some man .. you’d be amazed what you read. it is 2,5 % of population that can be characterized as such .. which doent mean that all are murderers. most of them (m+w) are acting ‘normal’ as can be understood by the fact that also in the norwegian case, friends and neighbours didnt expect such a terroract from any of the killers. again only a very small %age of the 2,5% are killerrs .. google psychopathy.

        hitler was one ,, stalin was ,, pol pot was ,, berlusconi is ,, mugabe is … etc

        1. Actually as fate would have it I was reading about psychopathy on the train this morning, almost as you were writing your message. A psychopath exhibits no empathy, is a pleasure-seeker, is shallow, is easily bored, and is profoundly self-centred.

          Just now I read a bunch of Breivik’s manifesto. He seems far too interested in things outside himself to be a true psychopath. I doubt you’d find a psychopath doing much for the common good (which in Breivik’s twisted mind, he was doing). You can say he was deluded because he was so very wrong, but was his mind faulty or just indoctrinated? I believe that perfectly good minds can be indoctrinated to do horrific things. There are not enough crazy people to commit all the atrocities in this world.

          Obviously I am biased, but I don’t like this tendency to equate evil and crazy and visa versa.

          By the way, you mention all those evil men from history. I don’t agree that they were all crazy (although they were certainly all evil) but don’t forget Winston Churchill. There is ample evidence that he had bipolar disorder but he was one of the good guys.

          Incidentally, I use the word crazy like I use the word queer. It is a word I have claimed for myself and I refuse to accept the negative connotations.

      2. Thank you very much Trav. Much appreciated. My first two replies were about how much I was saddened for the dead, injured and bereaved, whilst reading from Horny Harry and L.A. Larry, how much they thought he was handsome, and what he would be like in bed? In answering Robert, what I thought about these comments, and how I was affected in the past (in the column about the 14 year old boy killed by the bullet of another 14 year old boy), when tape, (whoever he is, I’ve been on for over a year now, maybe he’s a troll like Harry and Larry), comes on and bellittles my experiences. So I answer back, and he does the same, ect. But as you can see, he’s probably had a charmed life, where nothing bad ever happened to him. How lucky it must be to live his life, all Roses and Honey as Penboy2X say’s. He would probably belittle your pain as well. Maybe I should use an anal coolent on him, (Preparation H), as this usually soothes inflammed assholes.

        Here’s finding you at peace. I only hope I can find mine

        Whiterabbit.

        1. Can’t you at least get the facts right when they are written on the same webpage you are writing on? Just scroll up afew messages. You had already called everyone a selfish cunt who does not agree to your opion and claimed that not having your opinion does mean belittling your past before I commented the first time. But hey – you are the poor psycho kid, you are allowed to imagine the world just as it pleases you, you don’t have to get messed up with nonensense like facts and logic, everyone else has to lose as many relatives as you before he is allowed to comment on your fucked up sense of reality, your incapability to follow causal conclusions or your inability to see the difference between “before” and “after” – everything else is belittling your past and living in a world filled with rainbows and unicorns. I wonder if you can even buy a pack of milk in the supermarket without getting the feeling that someone belittled your past.

          1. Get your facts right tape. I called certain folks on here selfish cunts because of they way the joked about wanting sex with that Killer. And you come out of NOWHERE and start to ATTACK me. I didn’t even know you existed before yesterday. So where did all that come from? And what made you belittle me, i.e. “Fucked up life”, ect? So if someone killed a member of your family at 12, and you lost the others to cancer, you would be ok? If you would be, then maybe your the Psycho Kid and maybe you would be the one with the fucked up life?

            Whiterabbit.

            1. You are messing up the order again. Look at robert’s post you answered to. It is not about the trolls, it is about the death penalty. You clearly write about the people disagreeing with you, belittle their ideals and call them cunts. And then you are amazed that some harsh answer comes back? Which btw. wasn’t half as harsh as it could have been, at least I did not descend onto your intellectual level by throwing around with verbal abuse. But because of you past (which I did not call fucked up at this stage, though “fucked up” is a pretty accurate term, unless you want to contradict yourself and say that it was a glorious past and you would like to travel back in a time machine to relive it again) I thought it would be better to let you come to your senses after thinking about the discussion. But thinking clearly isn’t your strongest capability.

              Also there is no point in repeating your story over and over again. It just loses impact that way and you will probably want to use it to argue in favour of the death penalty on some other day. If there is something really belittling the tragic of your past its your inflationary use of it. Also even if you repeat it once more (and I am sure you will repeat it in the next message just to get sure we did not forget it in the meanwhile) it won’t make any factual difference concerning your statement about the death penalty.
              Also you always ask the same question again, whether me or someone else would be okay in your situation. This seems to be your standard defense when feeling attacked. The answer is – as given already in my very first post: no, but it does not matter. Why doesn’t it matter? I have written that before. But to teach you using the internet, instead of repeating it I’ll just offer you the following advice: the scrollbar on the right side of the screen is your friend! Find the post and read it. And this time even further than the first two lines, since that seems to be the point where your brain normally shuts down and you start writing your answer messages, which makes it a rather fatiguing task to discuss with you as if you were a grown up person.

  39. Tape, Was your Grandfather in the SS? He seems to have sent down his compassion straight to your heart.

    Prick.

    Whiterabbit.

    1. look what is happening here .. under the influence of psycho’s : even the right guys go fighting !! ?? !! that is exactly what they want … please take notice + care bro.

    2. You talking about a lack of compassion is even more funny than that bit about selfishness before. I like the consistency in your self-awareness.

      1. tape .. you ignore my plee, don’t you ? now what .. stop fighting think of the central issue please ..

  40. Oh piss fucking off. What bad happened in your life TAPE? I’m on the kids side not the fucking killers? Go back to sleep and dream your dreams. I hope their nice ones. Wait and see if anything happens to your family and see how philosophical you are? Or has your life been a bed of Roses? Opps there I go again about my dead loved ones. On my side SELF SELF SELF. On your side PHILOSOPHY PHILOSOPHY PHILOSOPHY. Get your head out of that book, or your ass, and see it from others point of view. If what happened to those kids and their relatives happened to you, I would be there to hold your hand, not preach PHILOSOPHICAL SHIT with probably no life experience of pain. BTW this all happened in the last 9 to 11 years, very raw still, I’m 23.

    Whiterabbit.

    But then again, self self self. blah blah blah.

    1. You are so much on the kids side that you become a killer which is exactly what the killer wanted to achieve. There is a reason why a person involved in crime is not allowed to be the judge at a trial concerning that crime. It is natural that one wants to follow one’s lower instincts and retaliate. But a society as a whole will suffer from that – everyones’ life will get a bit worse by that and not a single victim will rise from his grave. Which is why Norway’s Prime Minister said those words above – although he seems to have been one of the targets of the attack and therefore would have a reason to be really angry, much more than you or me.

      Perhaps it would be good for you to stick your head into a book once in your life. Perhaps it will help you to look outside your matchboxsized world. Really, give it a try. 23 is not too late. Its unhealthy to keep sitting in your own shit, even if you pretend it would be chocolate creme and offer us little samples to taste.

      1. to tape : sir .. please for once take notice + read what is written under my ‘stamp’ .. take time to consider what it is about. if you care at all .. as you say.

        we have a task ahead the coming 20 years .. if you try you’ll see what i mean .. but it seems you prefere to fight with weaker-ones … howstaht ? blush blush ..

  41. i leave this discussion with a certain disgust boys ..

    as it has grown into an ego-trip on the part of the participants .. mainly ‘tape’ + ‘penboyX2′ .. change for the better somehow ..

    my point has completely (=100%) been ignored, which is a problem for you guys .. i tell you, it is not for me, apart from the sadness i undergo, about ‘the ways of the world’ …

    even the word compassion came by .. but without real understanding .. so long

    1. Sorry for ignoring you – there is just no point in stopping a discussion just because someone tries to crush it under his personal tragedy (which indeed has enough weight to crush everything if it is allowed to). Also it is difficult not to sound harsh, when someone ends every of his postings with childish insults towards everyone not agreeing with him and avoids stating any valid points before.

      1. anyway yes + thanks ..

        by taking on such a sidetrack and trying to fight it .. most the time it strengthens the other ones viewpoints, alas. instead my stance was that his heavy history needed acknowledging in my feeling of compassion so i did .. but indeed up to a point .. it might sometimes be helpful to mirror, finding an even balance in these matters is an art that has to be learned ..

        1. I’ve found these long drawn out arguments that tend to happen from time to time only tend to make all parties involved look poorly.

          Once it’s become apparent you’re just not going to agree with someone on something or someone starts slinging mud, no one gains anything by continuing to post responses.

          BTW whiterabbit, would you mind helping the rest of us navigate past threads like that one by clicking on “Reply” rather then just scrolling to the bottom and starting a new thread. Thanks.


  42. Proxyman:

    If he killed your children, I doubt you’d be so quick to get on your high horse. And this coming from someone who lives in a country that both tortures and has the death penalty.
    Tell me, would you give Hitler life in prison? Or Stalin?
    How many people does it take for someone to no longer have the right to live in this world? 200? 1000? 10,000? Millions?
    I draw the line at 92.

    FIRST, I want to say that what happened in my parents’ native homeland made me cry. It is sad. How does one replace the void left behind? I think there will be this huge hole in the hearts of many there for a long time. Their population is not so great so the hurt will be felt longer.

    RANDOM ALERT:

    You asked, “Tell me, would you give Hitler life in prison? Or Stalin?”

    I ask you, if you could go back into the past to Braunau-am-Inn, Austria in 1899 (Hitler was a 10 year old boy at this time,) could you have killed the boy Adolph Hitler, knowing what horrible things he would do in his adulthood? I, myself, don’t think I could but I think it would have made a different world if I could.

    LET ME CLOSE BY SAYING I DO NOT CONDONE OR MAKE EXCUSES FOR THE HORRIBLE ACTIONS OF Anders Behring Breivik. In my mind he should die at the hands of the parents who lost children that day.

    1. sir .. o.c i understand you don’t read all of this scroll here, maybe you see what i wrote .. another solution for the future is in the making .. the personality-profile of the psychopath is ready now since some 40 years. 2,5 % population is psycho .. in one degree or sort or another. which also means f.i. they are not all killers. the profile could be handed out in universities + other tertiary schools and put to discussion on tv .. people have a right to know what it is .. these ppl. wear a sometimes very thick mask .. so2say .. that is the reason why they are so easily overlooked which is only one of the dangers surrounding these individuals.


  43. hvm:

    it is about time we realize, that we have a specific kind of people among us : the psychopaths.
    this kind of massacres is reason enough .. no ?? this guy should / could have been acknowledged, separated + treated in kindergarten-time. period. it is a fact.

    So you are saying you would single people out who have committed no crime and force treatment on them for what they might do? I’m so glad your only target is psychopaths (because after all, who would defend one of them?).

    However, I’m sure other less liberal minded people have a much bigger list of socially undesirable people they’d like to detect early on and “treat”. Are you really sure that this is a road you want to go down?

    Also, having taken several psychiatric profiles, I can tell you that it takes only a little self-awareness and a little situational-awareness and you can produce basically any result you want. You’re not going to get the certainty you’re looking for in a test until it is either genetic, or at least physical. Do you think there will ever be a test for perfectly sane people who are dangerous?

    Once again, though, I urge you to imagine this concept in the hands of someone like Michelle Bachman or Robert Mugabe. I doubt you would like very much where someone like one of them would take it. I’m pretty sure everyone who visits this site would become a target.

    1. no no .. this is not at all what i mean by .. ‘tests’ .. the test i point at is simply a very concise list of characteristics that are known, that any teacher psychologist or other workers in the field .. but in fact litterally EVERYONE should be familiar with. that is al.

      keep in mind that psychos are all over the place : 2,5 % is 1 in 40. so in every crowded bar you’ll find one. period .. these ppl. are simply a dangerous ‘virus’ to society and everybody should knopw how to recognize them.

      that the main idea.

      1. I know you have the best intentions, so I feel bad being so obstinate about this issue. However, if we create an environment in which psychopaths “cannot hide” what I fear is that people who are not psychopaths are going to get labelled as such in witch hunts, while meanwhile true psychopaths are just going to go deeper undercover. We can’t make everyone an expert in detecting psychopaths, and if we make a lot of people “sort of” experts I fear they’re going to do more harm than good.

        Also, as I keep saying, and I think you’re missing the point, not everyone who does something monstrously bad is mentally ill. I would be very surprised if Breivik is a psychopath or mentally ill at all. He seems very functional to me. There is no way he could have been mentally ill for the past nine years (when he began planning this attack and writing his manifesto) and only acted out now. I really think if he was crazy he would either already have a history of diagnosis and treatment or, given his hostility towards his fellow humans, have a history of criminal activity. Even if he was an undercover psychopath (which I doubt from the character of his manifesto, but I am not a doctor), I think there would be some history.

        Of course, like other well known killers, maybe Breivik’s past just hasn’t been discovered yet but will be now.

    2. ps : mr. mugabe (a. o. like f.i. berlusconi ..) would totaly fail the ‘test’ i point at .. he is a real heavy psycho and as such totally unable to understand what he is himself ..

      but yes o. c. there is a point in what i would call ‘abuse of knowledge’ .. well we have to grow as humanity and become more + more responsible to ourselves and our environment and simply ‘be aware with knowledge’

      .. and finally we have a system of justice that needs this knowledge more precise too .. not to worry it will come. it is the psychos that have be worried, which is what they are doing all the time anyway .. lol ..

      the endresult will be, they cannot be overlooked anylonger again .. love, awareness + knowledge .. will do the job.

  44. @ tape … what are you doing here sir ? i have warned you twice to stop this bullying ..

    are you sollicitating to become some ‘horrorboss’ or were you an SS-officer in your past-life ??

    focus on truth or GET LOST HERE ..

    1. Neither I am bullying nor I am claiming to be any kind of boss. Else I’d probably warn people not to continue discussing like you just did. Or tell them to get lost like you just did. Or insult them in some low way like… well… also like you just did, though I probably would be capable to find an insult more imaginative than to repeat something even whiterabbit did come up 24 hours earlier than you.

  45. They’ve started publishing photos of those lost. It brings it home – names, ages, a little bit about each. Most of them are so young, too young. This is horrible, fucking wrong. Poor kids.

    Fucking wrong.

  46. My condolences from mexico, its so sad to see this happend, my only wish is that some day all the world will be like norway, and peace and equality reigns across the universe.

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